Vocal Mic

[dmccoy]

I was thinking of using one of these: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...one?sku=273100

With one of these: http://www.macmoviemaker.com/index.php?id=31


My only ouple of problems are reocording, should I use a camera umbilical or some form of seperate recording? I have a power book or maybe I should use a tape recorder? I don't really know. I'm using (don't laugh) a canon ZR60 so maybe the umbilical would be less great due to the input being mini jack.

All help recomendations greatly appreciated, I'm in a transitional phase between movies and need help to make the next one even more kick ass.


Thanks,

-DMF

[miker]

personally, and as a sound recordist, i prefer to be a seperate from the camera. it makes for quicker setups and sound doesn't need to worry about jacking into the camera, and the camera doesn't need an additional cable-basher. this is especially true when working with directors who like to move the camera a lot.

this way i think both camera and sound are free to acquire the best possible audio/visual without compromising because they are attached to each other.

the disadvantage is, without timecode sync, you will need to spend a session in post syncing up. frankly i think that's a small price to pay, especially with a digital SD/HD workflow when you can essentially do it for free yourself on a modern home computer.

i did briefly consider using my powerbook to record location audio, but in the end decided to get a cheapish marantz pmd660 and matched mic (the mke300 was way too hot for this device), the benefits being hours of recording time and cheap AA batteries. setting up a computer on a guerilla-budget shoot is just asking for trouble and wishing you had it insured.

[dmccoy]

The PMD seems a little on the high end for my budget, how bout using an iPod with linux to record, I've heard those are pretty sweet.
Also, since the mke300 is a camera mount why not just plug it directly into the camera and record as one? It seems odd to record seperately. Oh course, since you're a recordist I am not arguing with you I just don't understand alot of things about sound. Is the boom a good idea tho? Also, will the mic I suggested work? It's a little more in my price range. I really appreciate the help tho, I will definetly give the setup you suggested some serious thought (sound is half the picture so it's okay for it to cost as much as a camera.)


thanks again

[miker]

do whatever's within budget, there are no "rules".

the mic you point to has a cardioid pick-up pattern and balanced cabling, which is probably going to be better than the omnidirectional mic on your camcorder which records the transport mechanism.

you're right that there are advantages to recording straight to camera, however i find they are outweighed by the disadvantages, if optimal acquisition quality is your intent. as with all these things, not having money/kit will invariably lead to compromise, and that's fine. hell, i've made enough compromises of my own that i know what i'm talking about here! (i talk as a sound recordist, but only as one of the many roles i have fulfilled over the years).

for example, it's difficult enough getting people to shut up for sixty seconds to record ambience, if you're trying to get people to shut up and politely asking the camera operator to press the record button it makes me wonder why you don't just have the camera department record sound anyway and just get a monkey who can hold a stick. it may be better than the camera's onboard mic (reduced motor noise), but it will be suboptimal, just from the way workf lows on-set and on-location. just IMO.

sure, it's a pain in the ass to sync up later, but it offers another chance to get to know the footage you've shot and if you're brutal enough you can dump some shots onto the cutting room floor there and then.

the DIY shockmount looks okay, but as with all these things you get what you pay for. i'm the first to admit that the ?100UKP i paid for my boom-pole is ridiculous, but it's better than anything i could make myself, and this is from the cheap-end of the sound kit spectrum (you can easily spend ?1000UKP on a mic alone, don't start me on how much rycote zeppelins cost!)

if buying anything near decent isn't an option (that's not to say your suggestions are not near decent) then make as many incremental improvements as you can and move on.

[miker]

have you downloaded the macmoviemaker trailer? according to quicktime it's encoded at 48KHz, yet for vocals all the mids-to-highs seems muted to me, like they were forced to do some noise reduction. it's "okay" but it bugs the hell out of me.

if you want to hear the sorts of problems you'll have by saying "f5ck it, just stick a low-end pro mic (k6) on top of the camera and be done with it" you need to listen no further than the trailer for my movie, but at least it sounds like i recorded more naturally sounding frequencies! right? please.

[dmccoy]

Miker. You are a genius. I just checked out the Crooked Features trailer. Genius. Evil. Twisted. Demented Genius. But good. Also, that's gorgeus sound.

I will look into those mics you suggested but I guess I have one last question: What exactly does a shotgun buy me over and above some sort of generic condensor like a R0DE NT1-A? A friend of mine has one so I was thinking of giving it a try.

If any of these questions seem so mind numbingly stupid that you feel the need to bash yourself repeatedly in the face with your keyboard i apologize.

I really apreciate you answering, i will also pick up a copy of the DVD because I laughed almost all the way through the preview. Except for the clowns. I hate clowns.

[miker]

basically a shotgun mic gets you more directional sound, so stuff behind/beside the mic gets its frequencies cut off (you can obviously still hear stuff, but its dampened). There's pros and cons, especially when the shotgun is just stuck on top of the camera, the cons that spring to mind are:

1. you're not going to get a close mic shot in anything but closeup. This means picking up more unwanted sound (poor SNR)
2. the mic will *never* be pointing in exactly the right direction for optimal recording (that's what a boom-swinger would get you, and closer to the sound source to boot). Again, lowers SNR quality.
3. Camera noise could be a problem. SNR again.

SNR = Signal to Noise Ratio, signal being the sound you want, noise being the sound you don't.

I felt it was a fair enough compromise for a "documentary" which was being shot PSC anyhow, and considering i couldn't find a competant sound recordist to work for peanuts for 10 days.

Hope you like the DVD :-)

[dmccoy]

Are those cons to a shotgun or generic condensor? I'm sorry, I just want to be sure before I drop the money from my sugar momma on it.

Personally, what would you suggest? I do alot of other kinds of recording(music etc.) and most of my shots are relatively close as well as probably having a dedicated sound person. I also notice that generic cardinoid condensor types happen to be cheaper for better quality.


I really do appreciate all the help. It's great that pros are willing to help high schoolers.
Thanks man, [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

If i'm ever in the isles [img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img]

[richard.fisher]

Those are the cons of mounting a shotgun on the camera. I suspect that the ideal situation would be to have both a shotgun, and a generic condensor, and use the correct mic for different situations, however I suspect this will be outside your price bracket, and even if you had surplus cash, you might want to find other ways to use it.

I suspect miker would probably agree the next best situation would be to have a shotgun mic, mounted to a boom, and controlled by someone whoose primary concern is holding the boom, and getting the best sound. They should be wearing the head phones, because they need to know how it sounds. The most difficult part of this combination to obtain is someone who will follow you around holding a pole. But if you can find such a person, it will make a dramatic difference.

[miker]

yep, I agree with Richard.

The thing to remember is that recording audio for a movie is a totally different game from recording instruments and vocalists. Generally on a movie the primary concern is recording good, clean dialogue and adding everything else later by design. Not always possible or practical, but that is the ideal IMO.

Although the mic you pointed out is cadioid, a shotgun is hypercardioid so has even more "direction" which is a good thing because the location SNR should be improved.

If you can get a dedicated soundperson, do it. You won't regret it.